Thursday, December 16, 2010

Cataclysm and Heroic....Failures

So......Heroics are hard. And by hard, I mean unplayable. They seem to have gone back to the days of needing to get a group you are familiar with to run through it. So far, I have done a bunch of Heroics on Darraxus. And by done, I mean attempted. So far the tally is around 20-30 wipes and 1 boss downed.

Granted, I have been doing randoms. And granted, the DPS has been sucktastic for the most part. Tanking, I have been doing between 7-8k dps per instance. Some fights I have done as high as 14k. Most of the DPS is hovering around Wrath levels at 5-6 k.

It takes forever to try and kill bosses and by halfway through the fight, the healer is out of mana and we all die a slow death. One of the biggest problems is DPS still not paying attention well enough to get out of the bad. On the first boss in one of the Uldum instances, the guy drop a bunch of landmines. These landmines hurt....alot. The DPS could not seem to keep out of it. We would lose 1 or 2 DPS in the first 20 seconds of the fight. The rules for instances have changed. They are hard. Much in the way they were in BC.

DPS is not judged only on their DPS now. They should be judged more on their ability to stay alive and interrupt mobs.

There are tons of ways to CC and tons of ways to interrupt now. People just need to get used to doing it. When there is a pull, DPS should not be doing anything until solid aggro is established. It causes too much trouble with baddies running here there and everywhere smacking DPS and healers.


Seriously. Just do it. This isnt a Nike add, but you need to interrupt.

Case in point. Got into Throne of Tides. Throne of Tides have healer mobs. Sometimes two in a group. We should have CCed one from the start. Did we? No. Were they being interrupted properly? No!

We spent five minutes on a single pull because I was the only one trying to stop the heals from coming. Every class has some kinds off CC for the most part besides Warriors perhaps.

Shaman - Hex
Mage - Polymorph
Warlock - Succubus or Fear
Paladin - Repentance
Rogue - Sap and Stunlock
Deathknight - Chains of Ice
Druid - Cyclone/ Roots
Hunter - Traps

There are all kinds of viable CC. I think it is just a matter of getting used to it again.

Another problem is the not standing in things. In Wrath heroics, you could stand in things and it did not matter one bit. The healer could heal through it. That is no longer the case. The healer cant heal through anything at this point.

Cataclysm instances are a game of choices it seems. The choices are do your job the right way or suffer a horrible death.

Cake or Death?
I will take the cake please.
Sorry, we are all out of cake.
So that leaves Death?

That leaves Death. For everone who has not learned the importance of CC or interrupting casts.

So out your tanks and healers. Use all of your abilities. We can no longer AOE tank everything without abandon. Give your group a chance and dont be a dunce.

Other than that, Cata has been just peachy. I love the new quests and zones. I like everything so far...except the expansion.

I don't mind increased difficulty. I do mind instances than make me not want to play at all. I know a few people who are very casual WoW players. They enjoy instances, but they aren't super duper hardcore. I fear that if they get into instances the way they currently are, they will be turned off from that aspect of the game.

Maybe I should give it some time, but I think some nerfs may be coming down the pipe.


Anonymous said...

At risk of sounding like an ass, warriors have Intimidating shout for CC, with a minor glyph that makes it so things don't actually run when you use it, so there's no worry of them running and bringing friends back.

You've also got hamstring, multiple stuns, piercing shout (if talented for it) that can all be used to control pulls.

You missed several things that other classes can do too, but it's hardly fair of you to expect other people to make better use of their own abilities than you seem to expect of yourself.

Celendus said...

These heroics will get easier to PUG once raiders are wearing epics - doubly so once epics are available for Justice Points (release of T12 raids). My guess is that less skilled players will need to hang out in normal instances until then - which isn't terrible since there's still quite a bit of gear available in them.

Askevar said...

Death knight "Chains of Ice" is minimally effective as a CC as well... it slows a mob by 60% for 8 seconds and constant recasting is not really doable. Death knights do however have two awesome interrupts - Strangulate [with a rather long cd] and Mind Freeze which I believe is 10 seconds cd.

And re: the above comment - it can be difficult for a tank to CC especially if they are chasing mobs everywhere because the dps aren't doing their job. Interrupts and CC fall on everyone, yes, but the lion's share is on the dps. Tanks and healers now have their hands quite full.

Artoo said...

Askevar, that's a flat out terrible excuse for a tank not to make use of abilities. I play a Feral druid as both tank and DPS and I'm not noticing any huge gaps in the demands made from either role. I can and do make use of CC on pulls, and it hurts me far more than a warrior, I have to drop out of bear form to use roots or hibernate, and yet I still do it.

If a pull is a bit messy should a healer just throw up their hands and not do anything because things weren't executed flawlessly? Or do you expect them to do everything they can to prevent a wipe?

Darraxus said...

Who said anything about me not using my abilities? I use all of my stuns on cooldown to help the healer and try to interrupt or spell reflect every spell that I can.

Warriors dont have any kind of lasting CC like a polymorph.

@ Anonymous: I am tanking, not DPSing. Before you jump all over me, realize that some of those abilities are not readily available to me.

@ Celendius: I agree that they should get easier with the newer gear. Better organization won't hurt either.

@ Askevar: I agree on interrupts and CC falling on everyone. I am the only one who is normally interrupting things it seems. A pull with two healing mobs and people are only trying to burn them. I was the only one trying to stop the heals.

@ Artoo: Who said anything about tanks not using abilities? This was about the DPS not using theirs. I try to do everything I can to make sure that the healer can get us through any given pull.

Askevar said...


First off, I never said a tank SHOULDN'T use their CC - they should... but we also have other responsibilities that dps don't have - we have to maintain threat, plan and direct pulls, mark, ACT to events as they happen rather than react to them. Heroic Ozruk - for instance - requires that I trust my group to do their jobs because I'm busy dodging, weaving, and in constant motion. If the tank is the ONLY one interrupting/ccing... that's a problem with the dps.

I'm a tank and I do everything I can to make pulls succeed. As a DK my CC is limited to yanking the mob over that someone broke out of CC before it nomnoms my healer, and as many interrupts as I can afford. I do all that I can. Why shouldn't dps do the same? Heroics, even with a guild group, are a lot more stressful on tanks and healers now. DPS can and should ease that burden [and they're still shocked they have a 40 minute wait?]

It seems like a lot of people want to jump on the tank for not doing enough, when we're often literally doing everything we can.

And to answer your question, since I've played a healer and am a raid leader - sometimes it IS more efficient to wipe the group, depending on what exactly has gone wrong. We're past the point of faceroll heroics that tanks and healers can pull 3 random dps through... If all the dps are dead early in the fight, the boss isn't going down in time - and I have told my healer to stop healing me so we can get back in and do it all again that much faster.

Artoo said...


From your original post: "Every class has some kinds off CC for the most part besides Warriors perhaps."

You then proceeded to list the following:
Rogue - Sap and Stunlock
Deathknight - Chains of Ice
Druid - Cyclone

Warriors have something comparable to every single one of those. If those count as CC, then warriors have CC. And you're claiming that they don't, which leads to a not unreasonable conclusion that you're not using your CC abilities, as you are apparently not aware they even exist.


I read "it can be difficult for a tank to CC especially if they are chasing mobs everywhere because the dps aren't doing their job." as "If I don't CC it's the dps' fault"

On top of this, I already said that I don't think there's a significant difference in the amount of stuff a tank and a dps have to monitor during a fight.

Maintaining threat is hardly different from a DPS that has to do dps/monitor their own threat. If anything this is a bit more complicated for DPS as they have to pay attention beyond just doing the highest they can. Note: If DPS are pulling aggro it is their fault, I totally agree.

You should clearly not be marking or organizing pulls in the middle of combat so I don't see how those examples are relevant, they're also not something only tanks can do.

"ACT to events as they happen rather than react to them" I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. Are you trying to say that tanks actually initiate things? While this is true it's hardly an extra responsibility, having to pay attention to what someone else is doing and deal with it appropriately is more effort than just doing something and expecting other people to deal with it.

Your example of heroic Ozruk is baffling. There's nothing to interrupt or CC on this fight. DPS have to make sure they aren't getting hit by the same stuff the tank isn't getting hit by, perhaps more so because tanks have a slightly better chance of surviving shatter or ground slam.

You're interpreting my question oddly. I agree there's situations where you should call a wipe, but until you reach that unrecoverable point, you should be doing everything you can to stop it from getting there. But the attitude you're displaying says to me that if someone else screws up well it's noy -your- problem and you sure aren't going to try to do anything about it because you're -tanking-, which means you're way too busy. That's the tone I got from both you and Darraxus and that attitude is something I have actually encountered and I think is a terrible one to have.

Vordan said...

@ Artoo - You are trying to make a statement because Darraxus didn't include every single CC that is possible for a warrior....beyond his spec, which a lot cannot be used in certain stances (hamstring for instance) and I would think stance dancing is rather risky in these instances. You have to make an argument probably because you are some face pulling DPS who could give a crap about if the tank has established aggro, if the healer has mana.

Obviously instances are not face roll anymore, and although its not ALL dps' fault, most the time as I play tank and healers classes across the spectrum, it is their fault. More so this expansion has brought fourth more people who are stuff in old ways and could care less if the instance is a success.

Darraxus said...

@ Artoo: No need to insult people. Nobody called you a douchebag. But if the glove fits.

@Vordan: Agreed. People hear what they want. Especially faceroll dps.

Artoo said...


Darraxus specifically stated: "Every class has some kinds off CC for the most part besides Warriors perhaps"

I quoted that in my last post, but there it is for you again. That's not as you said "Darraxus didn't include every single CC that is possible for a warrior". He said that warriors don't have CC. Those are most definetly different situations.

Also if you'd bothered to read what I said you would have seen this: "I play a Feral druid as both tank and DPS" but apparently according to you that makes me: "some face pulling DPS"

I came here to try and point out some things that might help make heroic runs go more smoothly.


I am sincerely sorry if I insulted anyone, that was not my intent at any point. My choice of wording has probably been unnecessarily harsh, but I do stand by the point I was trying to make.

Anonymous said...

5k-6k over an extended period is not "wrath levels" but cataclysm levels. DPS go oom with spamming now too just like healers.

Sag said...

I keep recount up to check on interrupts, as well as how I am doing. This DPS/Damage is more of a fun thing. I tank my wife heals. Last time we did Vortex I totaled 24 interrupts. The next was a Rogue with 12, after that my wife with 4 (as the healer). We also had a hunter and a Ret pally. I'm sure they have interrupts. This instance has areas where I cannot interrupt (when it is immune to spells that is virtually half of my toolbox) and I still totaled double the next person in the run. In my tanking spec doing the interrupts makes everything else more difficult for me. Given that there are no real timed enrages anymore, if the DPS aren't going to make my life easier, why should I bother to bring them?

Dahrla said...

About 5-6k dps is about what I've seen - remember, everyone now is JUST GEARED for heroics, versus in Wrath at the end everyone was mostly well overgeared. I was able to easily pull over 10k in heroics a couple of months ago - now, at 85, I find myself pushing about 8k or so (depends on the instance, of course). I'm sure everyone will be back up to the 10k+ that you are used to in a few months.

But speaking to that, everyone is also still in the learning stage. Unless your group is a group that runs together all the time, you are going to have slow groups unless you just get super lucky with a good pug.

And group makeup is a huge thing - not having reliable aoe on the first boss of heroic Stonecore, or instance, is terrible and almost group breaking, and a lot of cc is pretty useless in Grim Batol (most are humanoid mobs, but they are immune to mind control - renders shadow priests useless for cc in there).

And speaking of shadow priests - mind control is a cc that most people forget about, but it's INCREDIBLY useful. The second half of Vortex Pinnacle, most of Throne of Tides (the murlocs in the corridor with the huge mobs that pull you up into the air for a few seconds - mind control pull one of the murlocs and he will be one shot by all of the others - instantly getting rid of one mob), Halls of Origination, Lost City - mind control is insanely handy to have. Shackle is also insanely helpful in Shadowfang Keep, and parts of Halls of Origination as well.